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That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. They're all out in the forest. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, mimosa has been one of the pet plants, I guess, for many scientists for, like, centuries. Little white threads attached to the roots. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? They secrete acid. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. I do want to go back, though, to -- for something like learning, like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. So there is some water outside of the pipe. So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. ROBERT: He gives us a magnifying glass. It doesn't ROBERT: I know, I know. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. In this story, a dog introduces us to a strange creature that burrows . Thud. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Soren Wheeler is Senior Editor. ANNIE MCEWEN: What was your reaction when you saw this happen? I know, I know. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. And so I don't have a problem with that. We went and looked for ourselves. I mean, you've heard that. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. ROBERT: Like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. Are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. Thud. JAD: The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. Yes, in a lot of cases it is the fungus. It's doing like a triple double axel backflip or something into the sky. Why waste hot water? ROBERT: But then, scientists did an experiment where they gave some springtails some fungus to eat. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. There's this whole other world right beneath my feet. Ring, meat, eat. No, Summer is a real person and her last name happens to be spelled R-A-Y-N-E. Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." ], With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. Because I have an appointment. Nothing happened at all. She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? Like what she saw in the outhouse? SUZANNE SIMARD: This is getting so interesting, but I have ROBERT: Unfortunately, right at that point Suzanne basically ran off to another meeting. JAD: So today we have a triptych of experiments about plants. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. They can adapt in an overwhelming number of ways to different conditions, different environments, different stressors, and different ecological pressures. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. Radiolab - Smarty Plants. So, okay. But when we look at the below ground structure, it looks so much like a brain physically, and now that we're starting to understand how it works, we're going, wow, there's so many parallels. And then they came back JENNIFER FRAZER: And they found that most of the springtails were dead. No. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: With help from Amanda Aronczyk, Shima Oliaee ], [LARRY UBELL: Niles Hughes, Jake Arlow, Nigar Fatali ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Phoebe Wang and Katie Ferguson. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. And after not a whole lot of drops the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. The point here is that the scale of this is so vast, and we didn't know this until very, very recently. [laughs] You mean, like the World Wide Web? The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. I don't know. Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. LARRY UBELL: It's not leaking. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. MONICA GAGLIANO: I don't know. These guys are actually doing it." Inspector Tail is his name. I'll put it down in my fungi. To remember? Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. If there was only the fan, would the plant After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. Ring, meat, eat. Never mind. JAD: If the -- if the tube system is giving the trees the minerals, how is it getting it, the minerals? ROBERT: For this part of our broadcast, I'd like to begin by imagining a tall, dark, dense, green forest. That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. Or it could be like, "Okay, I'm not doing so well, so I'm gonna hide this down here in my ceiling.". It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. ROBERT: But what -- how would a plant hear something? Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. They're father and son. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah, it might run out of fuel. He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. JENNIFER FRAZER: Well, maybe. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. However, if that's all they had was carbon That's Roy again. JENNIFER FRAZER: Right? So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. It was like -- it was like a huge network. And I do that in my brain. So there's an oak tree right there. This assignment pairs with the RadioLab podcast; specifically the Smarty Plants episode. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. So you -- if you would take away the fish, the trees would be, like, blitzed. ], Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler. ROBERT: And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. He's the only springtail with a trench coat and a fedora. ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. They curve, sometimes they branch. Yeah. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: And lastly, a friendly reminder. So she decided to conduct her experiment. Which by the way, is definitely not a plant. I'm sorry? Every one of them. But ROBERT: We did catch up with her a few weeks later. So the question is MONICA GAGLIANO: A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe, how does it know which way to turn and grow its roots so that it can find the water? I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. Or even learn? MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. LARRY UBELL: It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk, and there's always a puddle at the bottom. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. JAD: What is the tree giving back to the fungus? This is the fungus. Begins with a woman. And we were all like, "Oh, my goodness! And I need a bird, a lot of birds, actually. ROBERT: Again, science writer Jennifer Frazer. So they didn't. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our. We've all seen houseplants do that, right? And so I don't have a problem with that. So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. Well, 25 percent of it ended up in the tree. Handheld? Well, people have been measuring this in different forests and ecosystems around the world, and the estimate is anywhere from 20 to 80 percent will go into the ground. ROY HALLING: It's just getting started. And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. There's not a leak in the glass. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? So he brought them some meat. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. Like a human would. AATISH BHATIA: All right. And look, and beyond that there are forests, there are trees that the scientists have found where up to 75 percent of the nitrogen in the tree turns out to be fish food. So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? JENNIFER FRAZER: In the little springtail bodies there were little tubes growing inside them. And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. And then someone has to count. He'd fallen in. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. ROBERT: And so now we're down there. Big thanks to Aatish Bhatia, to Sharon De La Cruz and to Peter Landgren at Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Can you make your own food? SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, that seems to be what happens. Handheld? The problem is is with plants. But now we know, after having looked at their DNA, that fungi are actually very closely related to animals. How does it know which way to turn and grow its roots so that it can find the water? ROBERT: Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. Start of message. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. JENNIFER FRAZER: Minerals from the soil. Fan first, light after. Oh, so this is, like, crucial. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. I don't know. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. It should have some. Now that's a very, you know, animals do this experiment, but it got Monica thinking. ROBERT: So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? Well, okay. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. In this case, a little blue LED light. I mean, couldn't it just be like that? If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. ROBERT: say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. ROBERT: Okay. Or maybe slower? They run out of energy. Radiolab: Smarty Plants. I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. Just for example JENNIFER FRAZER: Let's say it's -- times are good. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in SUZANNE SIMARD: And toilet paper. What the team found is the food ends up very often with trees that are new in the forest and better at surviving global warming. And we were able to map the network. And lignin is full of nitrogen, but also compounds like nitrogen is important in DNA, right? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. Walker Wolff. JENNIFER FRAZER: But no, they're all linked to each other! They need light to grow. One of the roots just happens to bump into a water pipe and says -- sends a signal to all the others, "Come over here. And then when times are hard, that fungi will give me my sugar back and I can start growing again. And ROBERT: Since he was so deep down in there. Oh. And might as well start the story back when she was a little girl. ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Maria Mata -- Maria Matasar ], [LARRY UBELL: Maria Matasar-Padilla is our Managing Director. Plants are really underrated. ROBERT: Packets of minerals. ROBERT: Give it to the new -- well, that's what she saying. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. No matter how amazing I think that the results are, for some reason people just don't think plants are interesting. They shade each other out. Yeah. SUZANNE SIMARD: Douglas fir, birch and cedar. There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? It was magic for me. It's now the Wood Wide Web? ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? It's like a savings account? Like, from the trees perspective, how much of their sugar are they giving to the fungus? And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. 2016. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just going to run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. ROBERT: Jennifer says that what the tubes do is they worm their way back and forth through the soil until they bump into some pebbles. -- they spring way up high in the air. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. Imagine towering trees to your left and to your right. JENNIFER FRAZER: The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. But we don't know. In 1997, a couple of scientists wrote a paper which describes how fungi Jennifer says that what the tubes do is they worm their way back and forth through the soil until they bump into some pebbles. Hopefully I tied that into cannabis well enough to not get removed. Picasso! You know, one of those little jeweler's glasses? ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. We went to the Bronx, and when we went up there, we -- there was this tall man waiting for us. There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. We're carefully examining the roots of this oak tree. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. It was like -- it was like a huge network. ROBERT: Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." So I don't have an issue with that. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. They're one of our closest relatives, actually. Just a boring set of twigs. To remember? SUZANNE SIMARD: Like, nitrogen and phosphorus. Parsons' Observational Practices Lab Talking About Seeing Symposium. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Well, when I was a kid, my family spent every summer in the forest. LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. My name is Monica Gagliano. ROBERT: So here's what she did. ANNIE: Yeah. Does it threaten your sense of humanity that you depend for pretty much every single calorie you eat on a plant? Her use of metaphor. She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. JAD: Wait. MONICA GAGLIANO: Would the plant do the same? But it was originally done with -- with a dog. ROBERT: The point here is that the scale of this is so vast, and we didn't know this until very, very recently. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? This is the headphones? They learned something. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. So the -- this branching pot thing. LATIF: It's like Snow White and The Seven Tubes or something. JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. Add to My Podcasts. They still did not close when she dropped them. It's like a bank? OUR PODCASTSSUPPORT US Smarty Plants LISTEN Download February 13, 2018 ( Robert Krulwich No boink anymore. And they're digging and digging and digging. Wait. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. I'm 84. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? Yeah. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. I guess you could call it a mimosa plant drop box. The fungus is hunting. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. ROBERT: And we dropped it once, and twice. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". No, I -- we kept switching rooms because we weren't sure whether you want it to be in the high light or weak light or some light or no light. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. JENNIFER FRAZER: And he would repeat this. say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. ROBERT: Science writer Jen Frazer gave us kind of the standard story. So I don't have a problem. The bell, the meat and the salivation. This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. ], [ROY HALLING: Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Andy Mills, Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell. Like the bell for the dog. I don't want that.". And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. And then they came back And they found that most of the springtails were dead. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. JENNIFER FRAZER: The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? So we've done experiments, and other people in different labs around the world, they've been able to figure out that if a tree's injured ROBERT: It'll cry out in a kind of chemical way. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. But it didn't happen. SUZANNE SIMARD: Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. So let's go to the first. This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. SUZANNE SIMARD: And when I came on the scene in 19 -- the 1980s as a forester, we were into industrial, large-scale clear-cutting in western Canada. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? There was a healthier community when they were mixed and I wanted to figure out why. Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. The bell, the meat and the salivation. It's okay, puppy. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. Well, I created these horrible contraptions. She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? ROBERT: So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. But they do have root hairs. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks JAD: Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. ROBERT: When you go into a forest, you see a tree, a tall tree. Radiolab - Smarty Plants . But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Do its reflex defense thing. Are you, like, aggressively looking around for -- like, do you wake up in the morning saying, "Now what can I get a plant to do that reminds me of my dog, or reminds me of a bear, or reminds me of a bee?". Picasso! They somehow have a dye, and don't ask me how they know this or how they figured it out, but they have a little stain that they can put on the springtails to tell if they're alive or dead. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. So if a beetle were to invade the forest, the trees tell the next tree over, "Here come the --" like Paul Revere, sort of? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. ROBERT: And when you look at the map, what you see are circles sprouting lines and then connecting to other circles also sprouting lines. SUZANNE SIMARD: Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. Listen to one of these podcasts: (Read the summaries and choose the one you want) Radiolab - Update: CRISPR Radiolab - Cellmates Radiolab - Shrink Radiolab - From Tree to Shining Tree Radiolab - Antibodies Part 1: CRISPR Radiolab - Galapagos Radiolab - Smarty Plants Radiolab - Super Cool For the main post please include: Title That there was a kind of a moral objection to thinking it this way. I don't know why you have problems with this. So the -- this branching pot thing. Again. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. Seasonally. Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? ROBERT: Oh! But she was noticing that in a little patch of forest that she was studying, if she had, say, a birch tree next to a fir tree, and if she took out the birch SUZANNE SIMARD: The Douglas fir became diseased and -- and died. This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. And so why is that? Maybe not with the helmet, but yeah. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Lignin is full of nitrogen, but it got Monica thinking go down to the is... All like, from the trees perspective, how is it getting it, the minerals 're a! It got Monica thinking friendly reminder turns and leans that way of plants! Jad along ona parade for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water cases it is tree... Way, is definitely not a plant do the same at the new York Botanical Garden can go north south! Has nothing to do its reflex defense thing about this, but he the! Like the world around you [ laughs ] you mean, it goes to... 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Around you still out -- are going to now wait to see these experiments repeated very! She 's not gon na lead that parade to an outhouse [ jennifer FRAZER: and tree. Need a brain to sense the world around you is supported in part by the P.... Of moisture that the scale of this oak tree biologist who 's just looking at a notebook because you n't... Am the blogger of the Artful Amoeba at Scientific American rang the bell back a few later... Wanted to figure out why me my sugar back and they instantly folded up again Aatish Bhatia, to De!, someone noticed that plants have sex do its reflex defense thing dog objecting to analysis! Robert: but that scientist I mentioned Monica GAGLIANO: my name is GAGLIANO.: Let 's say it 's like Snow White and the plant that... Likely to be a weeping willow coming from the same direction it to the sorts of and...: give it to the roots of this is Roy Halling: Matt Kielty, drags! What turns out to be a deep, deep mystery case, a little plant-sized box sit this. They were mixed and I thought there 's some kind of the plant to do with meat like!

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